Updating post from Reddit.

12
Posted by blizeH 2 weeks ago
Is there any truth to ceramic radiators being more efficient than other electric heating (including storage heaters)

We have a rental property with storage heaters. The tenant doesn't like them and has asked us to replace them with ceramic radiators. They are insistent that it's more efficient, and the letting agents are backing them up and saying we should get the ceramic radiators. We were going to fit a heat pump (AC) for them last year but they pushed back saying it'd be too expensive to run.

Along with the letting agents, the top results on Google say the same thing.

Google AI:

> Yes, ceramic radiators are efficient and can help reduce heating costs: > > Ceramic is a porous material that traps air pockets, which insulate the radiator and slow heat loss. This allows the radiator to maintain warmth for longer periods of time. > > Ceramic radiators emit 50% of their heat through radiation, which is durable and doesn't lose heat to airflow. Quick heating > > Ceramic radiators heat up quickly, so you don't need to leave them on for as long. > >Ceramic radiators are designed to be energy efficient, and can be cheaper to run than traditional heating options.

Bestheating.com:

> Ceramic core electric radiators are designed to work with energy efficiency in mind, and are therefore cheaper to run than many classic alternative designs.

Heating Direct:

> Ceramic core radiators are extremely energy efficient and retain heat well, even after being turned off. The heat retention features of ceramic radiators play into their energy efficiency as they don’t need to be running all the time

I'm guessing the last two are somewhat misleading claims trying to sell ceramic radiators, but I don't get the Google AI response.

Am I right that it can only ever be, at best, 100% efficient which is the exact same as an oil radiator, or just a simple electric heater or a fan heater? Does retaining heat actually make it more efficient in practical use, even though 1kW energy = 1kW heat, maybe because it 'feels' better you can run it for less time? Very confused and would appreciate any help with this. I don’t want to spent £200 per radiator to have it alongside a storage heater that’s just as efficient. Thank you!

39
18
Posted by SSMicrowave 2 weeks ago

You’re right. 1kWh of electrical energy delivered always equals 1kWh of heat into the property.

When people talk about ‘efficiency’ they’re often confusing it with heat distribution. Oil electric retains the heat a bit longer, but the above still applies.

Anything else is nonsense.

Your average person on the street knows basically nothing about energy. As proved by the fact they turned down a heat pump which is by far the best way to use electricity for heating.

If they’re that far gone, I doubt you’ll be able to persuade them otherwise. Depends if £200 is worth it to you to shut them up lol.

Reply
2
Posted by murmurat1on 2 weeks ago

Except a heat pump delivers significantly more than 1:1

Reply
8
Posted by SSMicrowave 2 weeks ago

Yes. I know how a heat pump works, hence me saying it’s by far the best way to use electricity for heating.

Reply
-17
Posted by murmurat1on 2 weeks ago

So your first sentence is wrong then?

Reply
15
Posted by SSMicrowave 2 weeks ago

For gods sake. The entire post is about different types of direct electric systems. The guy clearly know heat pumps are the best, as he offered one to tenants.

He didn’t asked for a lesson on heat pumps. He asked about ceramic vs storage heaters.

Reply
15
Posted by darwinxp 2 weeks ago

Love how no matter what the subject, there always has to be someone that feels they need to argue with you on the internet.

Reply
4
Posted by spacemonkey_1981 2 weeks ago

Oh no, there isn't......🤣😂

Reply
1
Posted by darwinxp 2 weeks ago

🤣

Reply
1
Posted by darwinxp 2 weeks ago

Snow is white

Reply
1
Posted by blizeH 2 weeks ago

Just wanted to say thanks so much for your post, and for me at least it was clear what you were trying to say :)

Really does feel a shame to have to buy multiple radiators to sit alongside something that’s just as efficient, but like you said it could be worth it to keep them happy

Reply
3
Posted by Brightyellowdoor 2 weeks ago

It's not worth your money being wasted to keep them happy. By all means fiy the rads if you think they could help them. But if you don't think that then do not waste your money trying to appease them.

Reply
3
Posted by Complex-Setting-7511 2 weeks ago

A heat pump isn't an alternative to a radiator, a heat pump is an alternative to a boiler.

Reply
1
Posted by No-Investment6476 2 weeks ago

>You're right. 1kWh of electrical energy delivered always equals 1kWh of heat into the property.

Did you just do the landlord special on thermodynamics?

Reply
7
Posted by tomdenty1 2 weeks ago

They're incorrect. For electric resistance heating (including ceramic heaters and storage heaters), 1kW of electricity running through the meter produces 1kW of heat. This is due to the fundamental physics of electricity-to-heat conversion, which is always 100% efficient for resistive heating.

The "trickery" with storage heaters lies in using cheaper off-peak electricity (via tariffs like Economy 7 or Agile) to store heat for later use, potentially reducing costs but not improving efficiency.

Heat pumps are more efficient to heat a space, often around 200%-300% efficient. They don't generate heat directly (otherwise we'd be breaking the laws of physics) but instead transfer it from one place (e.g., outside air or ground) to another. A fridge or an air conditioning unit would do the same, but in reverse

Declining a heat pump upgrade was a missed opportunity. (I wish my landlord would upgrade me, damn.)

As for the AI response, don't take anything a language model (AI) takes as fact, they commonly "hallucinate" facts as they are (at the low level) statistical models which generate words that sound plausible together.

If you're interested in looking more into the information, I'd recommend these two videos on YouTube, they explain the concepts I've went over here very well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-jmSjy2ArM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J52mDjZzto

If you've got any questions about heating feel free to ask, It was an interest of mine for a while.

Edit: phrasing

Reply
5
Posted by SSMicrowave 2 weeks ago

Yep good post, similar to mine above. Insane to turn down a heat pump. Some air to air heat pumps are getting really good too, getting about 4 COP now, especially in milder weather.

So many people stuck using shitty direct electric or storage heaters.

A heat pump combined with some level of heat storage/smart overnight tariff could easily be better than gas.

Reply
1
Posted by blizeH 2 weeks ago

Yep you’re right, unfortunately gas isn’t an option at the property so heat pump makes a lot of sense I think

Reply
1
Posted by blizeH 2 weeks ago

Thanks so much, that was my thinking too and I remember seeing that very helpful YouTube video you linked a while back whilst looking for an electric heater for our own place

Good shout on looking at the tariffs, I’m not sure what they’re on but I think he said something about working shifts so the eco 7 thing doesn’t work for him sadly

Sorry to hear about the heating where you live! What do you have at the moment?

Reply
2
Posted by BevvyTime 2 weeks ago

Surely if the trick is to put the storage heater on a timer, the fact the tenant works shifts os irrelevant.

It sounds more like they don’t want to bother working out how to use it effectively/efficiently and just want you to throw money at something which they - somewhat incorrectly- think will save them £££ by doing nothing.

Reply
1
Posted by tomdenty1 2 weeks ago

Yeah, sounds like they don't understand what they're actually talking about.
Load shifting with specific tariffs (Economy 7, etc..) is the only way they'd save money on a KWH to KWH basis.

Reply
1
Posted by tomdenty1 2 weeks ago

No worries - The guy who made the videos I linked has a lot of videos diving into rather dull topics. It's quite US focused, but most of things he says apply here in the UK.

As for the different tariffs, they work best for people who actually want to use them. Me and my partner are on Octopus's Agile tariff, which adjusts our electricity price per KWH on a half-hourly basis, with the price being directly tied to the amount of low-carbon energy being produced. We've managed to game-ify our electricity usage and shift most of our energy usage outside of peak times (16:00 - 19:00), saving us on average 30% compared to a normal fixed rate tariff.

It'd be a bit odd for your tenant not to use economy 7, given that storage heaters were one of the main reasons economy 7 was created!

As for what i use for my heating - wall mounted resistive electric convection heaters. No storing heat for later, no fans, just producing 1500W of heat to float upwards whenever they're on.

Reply
3
Posted by undulanti 2 weeks ago

As many others have said, and you suspected, the tenants and the letting agents have misunderstood the most basic laws of physics.

The promotional wording from Bestheating is carefully drafted to say nothing at all. The wording from Heating Direct is word play: it does not actually say they are more efficient than anything else.

Your broader suspicion may well be correct: there is probably a comfort issue here. Personally I’ve never liked storage heaters. Perhaps the tenants have them on too long (to stay comfortable), so are paying more than they expect. Heating via electricity is always expensive. It would be worth checking that the tenants are on an economy 7 or similar tariff, that they understand how to use it, and you being 100% sure that the heaters are wired correctly so as to use that tariff.

If all else fails, you could offer to swap out just the heaters in (for example) the living room and the primary bedroom. Alternatively, I find oil radiators do a good job comfort vs cost wise but I suspect they’ll push back on that because it’s not a shiny new thing on a wall.

Reply
1
Posted by blizeH 2 weeks ago

Thank you! Yes those are kinda my thoughts too, that whilst the ceramic radiators can’t be more efficient, they could be more practical for them or emit a more comfortable heat. But in that case I’d still prefer to put the money towards a proper, cheaper solution. I’m jot sure regarding their tarrif but I will check - pretty sure he said due to his shift pattern he doesn’t want to have to charge them at night anyway

Reply
3
Posted by Tufty_Ilam 2 weeks ago

Storage heaters are woeful compared to proper radiators. My partner's landlord refused to put heating in the bedrooms at all until it was pointed out it's a legal requirement by the letting agent. He's put storage heaters in and they heat themselves up, and the air directly above them, and that's it. And cost a ton in the process compared to gas central heating. But he wants to keep his own costs down and that's his only concern.

Reply
1
Posted by blizeH 2 weeks ago

Thanks, but can you please define ‘proper radiators’ because neither gas nor oil are an option at this property

Reply
-1
Posted by Nuxij 2 weeks ago

Gas can be delivered in bottles. Or install a wood burner

Reply
-1
Posted by Tufty_Ilam 2 weeks ago

Gas boiler, central heating. Bottled gas is the way forward if there's no other way to get it in.

Reply
1
Posted by devtastic 2 weeks ago

It is not possible to give a definitive answer what is best between storage heaters and electric radiators because it will depend on a lot of factors including insulation, how much they are home, type of storage heater, and so on.

Ask them what they mean by efficient? Do they mean use less electricity or cost less to run?

People confuse efficiency and cost. If you use 10kWh for your ceramic heaters but 15kWh for your storage heaters then your ceramic heaters are more efficient (typically because you only run them when you are there). But if you were paying 20p/kWh for your ceramic heaters but 10p/kWh for your off peak electricity then you will actually be paying more to run your more efficient heaters. But depending on your usage it could be more efficient and cheaper.

What vintage are the storage heaters and what sort of property is it? A landlord of a 1 bed flat I know replaced one of the 3 antique storage heaters with a fancy modern high heat retention one (Dimplex Quantum) and the tenant was much happier because it was programmable and set and forget,

To answer one of your other questions, ceramic radiators are part radiator, i.e., they radiate heat as well as heating the air. That means if you sit in front of one then some of the heat will be directed at you rather than heating the air. It's a bit like feeling the warm sun on your face on a cold day, or standing near a bonfire on a cold night. So it may be that if you have a storage heater running at 2kWh and a ceramic radiator running at 2 kWh you feel warmer with the latter because 1kWh is going into the room and 1kWh is going directly int room vs 2kW going into the room.

Reply
1
Posted by psvrgamer1 2 weeks ago

Since when do tenants dictate what upgrades goes into a house. It's you're house and choice what heating system you choose and if the tenants don't like it it's their choice to stay or move.

Take advice from professionals and not tenants. Air source heat pumps might be the best option but it depends on the property and it's current insulation levels. Do your own research and make the best choice for your circumstances and house. Personally I'd never let a tenant dictate their wants on such an expensive upgrade based on their research and beliefs.

Reply
1
Posted by Available-Ask331 2 weeks ago

I work in emergency accommodation. We have over 300 properties/ rooms to heat. Only one building has heat pumps. They are rubbish (mitzsubishi make). My company only pay to maintain them so the building can keep it's 'green eco-friendly' tag.

All other places have storage heaters. Fck me, they chuck out heat, and according to the MD, they are cheap to run, considering the heat they chuck out, due to being economy 7.

Reply
1
Posted by Maleficent_Disk_1895 2 weeks ago

I think an air conditioning unit is the best system for electric heating. The full system is designed to work together.

With air source heat pumps, they're retro fitted to old pipe work, radiators, and trv's. People don't understand how to run them, and 90% of heating engineers just slap in an ashp in and leave the occupier to it.

I know enough about ashp to know i don't know enough. That's why I'm sticking to my 20 year old gas boiler.

Reply
1
Posted by yetanotherdave2 2 weeks ago

Seriously don't listen to AI on these things. Losing heat is what heaters are designed to do. If you keep all the heat in they won't heat anything around them up.

More modern lot20 storage heaters probably would be your best option, along with a better tariff. Air source heat pumps don't have a good reputation ATM. They can be great in the right property with an appropriately designed system, but the odds of getting a salesman who will bung just any system in and run off with the money is just too great IMO.

Electric heating is always 100% efficient. Heat pumps can sort of exceed 100% on paper by moving heat from the outside into the property.

With storage heaters the tariff is the important thing. If they are on a bad tariff they will be too expensive to run. Octopus energy are coming out with a tariff called Snug which I'm on the wait list for. That will charge me 9p a kWh off peak and 25p kWh peak. You get 6 hours at night and an extra hour in the afternoon at a point the supplier chooses between 2 and 4. This is ideal for storage heaters. The down side is many of the lot 20 heaters won't come on in the afternoon unless programmed too. The changing time for when it charges could mean they won't work with the tariff. In this circumstance the older heaters may well be better.

I use storage heating in my 3 bed all electric house and I'm an electrician who works on these systems.

Reply
1
Posted by blizeH 2 weeks ago

Thank you! They actually have the lot20 heaters at the moment and don’t like them, something to do with working shifts and it not really working for them. iirc heat pumps are generally at least 300% efficient, sometimes more than 400%?

Good shout on the snug tarriff! I will suggest it, hopefully it will help them

Reply
1
Posted by chabybaloo 2 weeks ago

Fit a heat pump. Nobody should be using direct electric heating.

Reading the other comments it seems its not actually about efficiency of electric to heat (100%)

But the efficiency of getting that heat to the person.( Leaks when they are not home. Or instant heat. Or the ability to heat qucikly would affect the tenants )

Reply
1
Posted by Rozza9099 2 weeks ago

The air source heat pumps are really only good for well insulated buildings (such as new builds) and ones that have been designed to be air tight (aside from the purpose ventilation).

There's some good info out there and generally they're only as good in efficiency as your average boiler over an entire year (+90%) even though yes they technically can get upwards of 320% efficiency, but only when the outside temperature is ideal for the heat exchange. Too cold and they struggle, using more electricity, plus they're prone to their exchange elements freezing in colder weather which reduces the exchange, thus more electricity used.

They're a good piece of tech but only in new builds or well retrofitted buildings with good insulation U-values.

If your building isn't insulated to current building regulations, then I'd go down the ceramic route. Might make a bit of a difference but as others are saying, 1KWh of heat is just 1 KWh of heat, it doesn't really matter if its quick to dispers or not. The ceramic will help hold the heat as a sink and radiate it but not really worth the money in my opinion. I'd spend it on loft insulation (25% of heat is lost through the roof) and this can be done relatively cheaply (£1100 by contractor) or even less if you want to put the time in to save the cash.

Reply
0
Posted by TravelOwn4386 2 weeks ago

Beware of replacing them for your epc could drop until they reform it. I saw a few posts this week where people have swapped storage heaters for something better only to find their epc dropped a level as they prefer storage heaters at current.

Reply
-2
Posted by Responsible-Type-595 2 weeks ago

Generally, yes, they’re more efficient and cheaper to run, also more control over them then storage heaters. Older storage heaters are generally not very efficient.. I mean, they didn’t need to be when energy was cheap and the tech wasn’t as good. But newer ones are more efficient than older ones (as you would expect). Tbh it’ll probably be an advantage either way upgrading them to ceramic anyway, again, more control, look better and more attractive to renters..

Reply
3
Posted by cjeam 2 weeks ago

How do you think an older storage heater is less efficient than a new one?

Reply
2
Posted by thefunkfableist 2 weeks ago

It all depends on the usage pattern by tenants but often ESH come with an "on demand" mode that kicks in when no heat is left in the bricks. If for example, a person uses economy 7, but works all day when the heat is leaking, then demands heat when the bricks are empty, they are paying twice!

High heat retention storage heaters often save my customers a few quid a day when compared with older style or slimline variants.

Reply
1
Posted by blizeH 2 weeks ago

Thanks, just regarding the last point it’s not really an option to ‘upgrade’ them to ceramic unfortunately since it’ll tank the EPC. The storage heaters will have to remain and sit alongside the storage heaters, which I really don’t think is a good look for potential new tenants sadly

Reply